Topics: Fuel, U.S.-Iran war

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THOMAS ORITI: Joining us now is New South Wales Liberal senator, Dave Sharma. Senator, good afternoon.

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DAVE SHARMA: Good afternoon. Glad to join you.

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THOMAS ORITI: What do you think Dennis Richardson saying, "I'm being paid too much. Five and a half grand. It's too much. I'm surplus to requirements." So perhaps a noble reason to step down?

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DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, I think Dennis is a very honourable person, but I think what this suggests to me is that there has been... yeah, the royal commission is not working as it should. This is someone who, quite rightly the Prime Minister said, was indispensable to getting to the bottom of, of whether there were any security or intelligence failures in the lead-up to the Bondi terrorist attack, and how we go about addressing them. And this person, who was described by the Prime Minister as indispensable, is now no longer there and no longer part of the royal commission. Uh, and I think it, it inevitably and sadly throws the project of the royal commission into doubt. And I think that's why the government, which created this royal commission, and under considerable, you know, after some delay and some political pressure to do so, did the right thing in doing so, now needs to make sure it's a success. And I think, uh, they need to be speaking to the people involved and seeing what's gone on here and how it can be rectified.

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THOMAS ORITI: Well, what, what's gone on here sounds like the government agrees with you. They did feel like he was indispensable, so they were paying him, upwards of $600 an hour to do his work. I'm not sure what the... Is the solution to not pay him that much 'cause they thought was indispensable?

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DAVE SHARMA: I think I think that was quite a diplomatic way of Dennis Richardson saying he wasn't being tasked with serious work, and his work wasn't being taken seriously. He says that he's getting paid too much, he's quite happy to take that amount of money, I'm sure, for other roles. He's describing his work as that of a research officer. I think that suggests to me that that strand of the royal commission's activities... and bear in mind, this the interim report which the royal commission is due to hand down in a little over six weeks. that suggests that that strand of the royal commission's activity is, is not functioning as it should to be.

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THOMAS ORITI: Okay, okay, so you're, you're saying, you know, "Hang on. You were, you were paying me too much considering what you were asking me to do." I mean, there's often concern we hear about the huge costs of a royal commission. Dennis Richardson was not only being paid quite a lot of money a day, but he also said this this morning.

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[CLIP STARTS]

DENNIS RICHARDSON: A review of the kind I was going to do does have a certain flexibility about it. A royal commission, for all sorts of proper reasons, doesn't have that same flexibility.

[CLIP ENDS]

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THOMAS ORITI: Okay, so whether it be the cost issue or the speed and efficiency argument, do you think that what he said there casts a revealing light on why the government initially opposed going down the path of a royal commission at all?

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DAVE SHARMA: No, I don't think it does necessarily, but I mean, bear in mind, I'm just trying to you know, I'm interpreting these comments - everyone will have their own interpretation. Um, but it does suggest to me that, my interpretation would be that it feels like Dennis Richardson cannot do the job he was tasked to do within the royal commission as structured. And I don't think that's a defect in a royal commission itself. It's a defect in the operations, the structuring, the management, the personnel, whatever it might be. It's a black box to me. I don't know what's inside it, but I think it's up to the government to get to the bottom of what's inside it and what's going on. Because, Dennis Richardson was tasked with a very important component of the royal commission's work. The fact that he's walked away from that now suggests to me that something is amiss.

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THOMAS ORITI: I just want to play this for a moment. Senator Michaelia Cash this morning, leader of the opposition in the Senate, Shadow Attorney General.

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[CLIP STARTS]

MICHAELIA CASH: I think the government never wanted this royal commission. It has structured it so badly that Dennis Richardson, in his own words has now effectively said he's been pushed aside, that I call on the prime minister today, he has to intervene and immediately fix this.

[CLIP ENDS]

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THOMAS ORITI: I just wonder, Dave Sharma, have some of your parliamentary colleagues been a bit pre-emptive with this? So Dennis Richardson isn't being pushed aside because he feels he was being paid too much to do a certain job. Is he being pushed aside?\

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DAVE SHARMA: Look, I think these are the questions that need to be asked and examined, and I think this is all Michaelia Cash is, is saying, and the government needs to get to the bottom of this. Because I think, until it does, we will be forced to engage in kind of cryptic crossword here in trying to interpret it and decipher what all this means. I think Dennis said he was surplus to requirements, that the sort of work he was doing was not commensurate with not only what he was getting paid, but I think someone of his seniority and expertise and capability. and that troubles me, and I think it should trouble everyone who is concerned, for the success of the royal commission to make sure it, it does its job as it should do.

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THOMAS ORITI: Peter's texted in saying, "The opposition seem to want to forget that he was appointed prior to the royal commission being called." That's from Peter. perhaps that's the case. Thanks, Peter. But I, it makes me want to ask you, Senator. Does his departure from the royal commission shake your confidence in its work?

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DAVE SHARMA: It does. And that's not an irretrievable situation, but I think questions rightly need to be answered now. I mean, when Dennis Richardson was appointed, to your, your correspondent Peter's point, we supported it. I certainly supported it. I've worked under Dennis Richardson in a number of diplomatic roles. I have a very high regard for him, and he has, he has a very high regard across both sides of politics, across the entire Australian Parliament. So if someone of that calibre and capacity is walking away from the royal commission, I think you can only interpret it with a degree of frustration about the experience.

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THOMAS ORITI: I think that's the, that's the only fair interpretation I can put on it. Then it... we should be worried about, well, will the royal commission be able to do the task that it was set to do? Would it be appropriate to delay the interim report given this development? I understand it's due pretty soon, in April.

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DAVE SHARMA: Well, I think those are the questions that, that the government, which is ultimately, you know, helped set up this royal commission. It's the creature of the government. Certainly had opposition support. But that's the sort of questions that they need to be, or discussions they need to be having with the royal commission. You know, what does this mean for their work? What does it mean for their interim report? Does the role that Dennis Richardson - the role he was playing, does that need to be replaced? Can it be replaced? You know, what does it say about, the way the work is being conducted today that he has left before the interim report has even been produced?

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THOMAS ORITI: Dianne's texted in, Senator. "How differently would the opposition have handled things?" Uh, Dianne says, "Excuse me, but surely a royal commission's required to do research. The coalition are always such naysayers and will criticize everything." This is Dianne's words. the public sick of complaining?" Now, that' s, that's Dianne's text. But, Senator, is, is that a good point? The, the idea that, uh, he was being paid too much to do research. Isn't research a core component of the royal commission's work? It’s a crucial part of it.

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DAVE SHARMA: I think it is, but I don't think you have someone who's been, secretary of two government departments, the director-general of ASIO and ambassador to Washington and a chief of staff to a prime minister, doing work that someone frankly on $80,000 to $100,000 should be doing. You don't bring in people like that to do research. I don't think... I think that comment suggests that Dennis Richardson's full expertise and capabilities were either not being valued or not being utilised. Uh, and look, to Dianne's point, I think we're just asking questions. I mean, rightly I think people are concerned about this. I mean, news outlets are concerned about this. People are asking questions because if someone leaves an organisation, in these sorts of circumstances, people are always going to say, "Well, does that suggest something about how that organisation or entity's functioning internally?" And I think it's only right and proper that anyone in public life is asking these sorts of questions right now.

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THOMAS ORITI: Mm-hmm. Is it the case, though, that his, original task, before the royal commission was announced, his, his original task might have given him broader reach? The royal commission itself has narrowed the scope.

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DAVE SHARMA: Well, I think if that was the case, then when the royal commission was created, I would've expected that Dennis Richardson would've said, "Look, my, you know, my role here is done." But clearly, he didn't see the creation of a royal commission as... at the time it was created, as impinging upon the ability of him to do his work. Uh, and obviously, he was aware of that decision at that time. So obviously... it's something that's happened since, I think, that has obviously changed his mind, and that's what we need to try and uncover.

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THOMAS ORITI: Yeah. And, and look, you're right in pointing out that, at the moment, we are reading between the lines somewhat. So, we appreciate you coming on, Senator. Thank you very much.

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DAVE SHARMA: Thanks so much, Thomas.

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THOMAS ORITI: New South Wales Liberal senator Dave Sharma.

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[ENDS]